How Much Noise is Acceptable?
I found this article in today's Neighbor's section very interesting.
Residents who live at 10 Aragon (I think that's the white condo building on top of Tarpon Bend and City Cellar) are unhappy about the late-night noise coming from patrons at Fritz & Franz Bierhaus:
City commissioners are not feeling very sympathetic about it:
I found the whole thing interesting: what is a fair expectation of noise when you live in the middle of a downtown area? (Read the article to get the gist of this issue.)
Let's open the floor for discussion!
Residents who live at 10 Aragon (I think that's the white condo building on top of Tarpon Bend and City Cellar) are unhappy about the late-night noise coming from patrons at Fritz & Franz Bierhaus:
"There were drunken people outside. They were serving alcohol after hours," Wanderley said, adding that she spoke for the other 180 residents of 10 Aragon Ave. who are upset about late-night activity at Fritz and Franz Bierhaus across the street.
City commissioners are not feeling very sympathetic about it:
"As much as she's upset and the homeowner's association is upset, they decided to move into a bustling downtown," Cabrera said, adding that he would not support a move by Slesnick to have the restaurant remove outdoor seating after midnight, something that then could carry over to other nightlife zones like Miracle Mile and Giralda.
I found the whole thing interesting: what is a fair expectation of noise when you live in the middle of a downtown area? (Read the article to get the gist of this issue.)
Let's open the floor for discussion!
Labels: businesses, condos, downtown, miracle mile, noise, ordinances
posted by Tere at
1/24/2008
16 Comments:
My first impression upon reading the article yesterday and then again today is that this lady is a whiner. If the cops and the owner of F & F know her complaints before she calls the police, then she must call all the time. Nice way to waste city resources lady!
You do however bring up a good point. How much noise is too much? I’d say people pounding loud bass at 4 AM from the condo upstairs would qualify because that is noise that is unexpected and potentially constant. To live near a bar in a central part of town and NOT expect noise is just nonsense.
While visiting a friend in NYC a few years ago, I stayed at her place in the Village (Bleeker & Jones) to be exact. This was a gorgeous (on the inside) apartment on the second floor. Throughout the night I would hear people laughing, yelling and doing what New Yorkers do. Then about 4 or 5 in the morning the snow plows rolled by. Lots of noise, but after the first night I slept through it. BTW, I am making NO COMPARISSON between Coral Gables and Manhattan…they’re just not comparable, except for the fact that to live in an urban area you have to be willing to accept some noise.
Fritz and Franz Bierhaus and whatever was there before (same owner) has been there for more than 8 years and 10 Aragon was built maybe 3 or 4 years ago. This lady HAD to know that a bar/restaurant was back there. Hell, even the Denny’s is packed at 3 AM and some people walk in there drunk or worse after a night of partying. and that’s been happening forever…way before Coral Gables started to “take off” circa 97/98 with the opening of The Globe (1997).
Bottom line, the City Commission (who I have little love for as a former Gables resident forced to move because of their zoning for $$$ ways back in the early 00’s) knows of her issues and completely ignores them. She bought the place where it is and now can’t deal with the noise…but I’m sure she raves about her condo in the Gables and how close it is to everything and is in a great spot.
Every neighborhood has issues! IMHO, she should just deal with the noise or put the condo on the market. She has THOUSANDS of other condos in Miami from which to choose.
Just my .02
Cheers!
Well, sir, for me it's simple......are people allowed to make noise after certain hours? yes? no? If they aren't, so they are breaking the law and should be punished (and the law enforced)....simple as that...otherwise, we can just start crossing red light "because we are late for class", or shoplift "because I really wanted that bag!"......there is no "adaptation" of the codes and laws...it is what it is...and they are breaking it.period.simple as that.
Thanks Tere for starting the discussion! For me that's the important lesson from all this....knowing and demanding respect and your rights....
Anyway, another great point made by the mayor was that everyone was crazy to atract people to the downtown area, we bought nice apts and pay the same taxes like everyone else! Therefore we deserve the same amount of respect and the right to not be waken up at 4 am by a bunch of drunken people....so the city makes money, the developers make money and what about idiots that invested in their condos, well, screw them!That is basicaly what the comissioner said!
By the way, I'm sure George Bush and Dick Cheney call everyone against the Iraq war whiners...so....thanks!!! That's what's missing nowadays...people standing for what they believe is right...I know It might be dramatic but I feel great that I'm doing this, not only for misself, but representing everyone that is unhappy with the situation.
Indeed great discussion:
To Anonymous #1: Did you read the article? If laws were being broken, don’t you think the Coral Gables P.D. would be doing something about it? Read it again and you’ll see the chief of police is quoted as saying they’ve found nothing wrong.
To Anonymous #2: I agree, one should fight for their rights, however common sense needs to be factored in. Also you cannot compare this issue with the Iraq war. Sorry, they’re two completely different things. This lady’s choice hasn’t cost thousands of lives and billions, but that’s for another time and place…
Also, Anonymous #2, where in the article did the Mayor say “that everyone was crazy to attract people to the downtown area?” Did you live in Coral Gables before it turned around in the late 90’s? There was no nightlife, no restaurants and a dying Miracle Mile, the closest place was Coconut Grove and their neighborhoods have been suffering late night noise for decades. Part of the allure of 10 Aragon IS the nightlife and the nearby attractions. The developer did what developers do. Buy property, build it up and sell it. This lady bought it knowing the area was growing and becoming more popular and now doesn’t like the situation she bought into.
Bottom line: We all pay taxes and we all have the right to have our complaints heard. The person complaining has had her complaints heard by the city and there’s nothing she or the city can/will do about it. It’s similar to people who buy a house under the landing/take off pattern for airports then complaining about the noise. They can get it changed, but it takes years and patience.
Buyers need to weigh the risks vs. rewards of owning a piece of property. There is no “perfect” neighborhood. Everyplace has an issue, but we must learn to live with our choices. Calling the police for frivolous and perceived violations takes one cop off the street who could be doing something more productive.
The most telling part of the article was the comment from the owner of F&F re the lady and how the cops already know her. She is the garden variety whiner that every neighborhood has and she probably has 911 on her speed dial to report all sorts of inanities. She needs something to occupy her time.
Let's take a step back and look at this objectively. In the article it is revealed that there are 180 other residents at 10 Aragon. Where were they during the Commission meeting? If the noise from F&F was such a nuisance don't you think that at least a couple of other residents would have shown up? Furthermore, if this lady represents the Association, couldn't she have collected signatures for a petition or presented a letter from the Association to back up her claims?
Coral Gables has a noise ordinance. If F&F had violated it, or if F&F were selling alcohol after hours, the police would have stepped-in immediately. F&F is following the letter and spirit of the law. The owner even stopped live music after 10:00 p.m. (way before the noise ordinance's limit of midnight) in an effort to appease this lady.
If more people were complaining, I could understand the need to take action. But because of a complain from one person out of 180, and despite the fact that it is following the law, a business is going to have to significantly alter its operations? I don't think so!
This is clearly nothing more than someone who has WAY too much time on her hands.
Double-paned windows and sliding doors. Problem solved.
I can't believe anybody's serious about this in the middle of a mixed-use district.
City living. City noises.
Earplugs.
Though I'm not a hang-out-at-the-bar person, I'm always glad to walk by and hear the music and the crowd at F&F. It makes that whole area seem less dead.
Lots of people appreciate the bustle; it won't hurt property values or anything like that.
Ok my opinion is actually pretty simple. When you are looking for a place to live you do your homework on the area and what happens. This is Coral Gables and a happening place. Night life is part of the culture and norm. Now when it becomes destructive like property damage then you address that but this is the night life this section of the city has. The place is alive!
But this is a great open hot topic really how much noise is too much noise? Is it only one person's opinion? I have been to places where I hear a band and I am fine with it but others will say "oh thats too loud." I personally when picking a place to live would not pick a spot where restaurants, nightlife and downtown living is the norm if I did then I expect what comes with that life...some level of noise...Can you imagine how noisy that place is on Octoberfest?
Just my opinion Cheers...
'noise' is a very subjective thing. some people are more sensitive than others.
if you choose to live in an urban highrise, you are choosing a noisier life than in a surburban house.
sometimes, people only find this out when it's too late...for them, i have two words: "For Sale"
The irony is that this is an Austrian restaurant and Germanic countries are very stricy about noise pollution. Personally, I don't mind noise, if you want quiet you have to go to Key Biscayne or somewhere west, because you will hear ambulances, lawnmowers (early), police sirens, airplanes anyway. Add a few drunks no big deal. I have to believe that this is a fairly rare event, because not that many people are getting drunk in Coral Gables. (compare to Coconut Grove or South Beach)
The problem isn't the drunks or the car noise or anything like that its more the giant outdoor speakers and outdoor live music that goes late into the night. The giant outdoor speaker phenomena is something that is really unique to south florida, restaurants like that would get shut down instantly in cities like NY or Boston or Chicago. The ironic thing is that any other restaurant in the dt gables area probably could get away with it since F&F's is the only one that abuts residential buildings, yet F&F's is the only one that uses outdoor music and entertainment. The grove has this problem too with places like Wet Willies that have giant outdoor speakers that blair music every night until about 4AM. I know people say downtown residents should expect noise but outdoor speakers is something that is completely unique to south florida (or Bourbon St in NO) and it grew out of the fact that in the past these establishments could get away with it in the passed because no one lived in SFla downtowns.
The problem is living downtown.
Speaking about noise, how do you like these guys (usually guys) in the big cars, who put their sound system at the max so that everyone can benefit from their taste in music? I think those are the worst.
Ah, just losers desperate for attention!
It's those train horns they're attaching to trucks that are driving me insane. I wish many bad things on the people who use those!!
And I was thinking that this problem affect only people in South Beach.
And to many whiners I used to tell them to go live in Coral Gables.
Where should I direct them now ? Hialeah !
Seriously I think that if you choose to live in an urban environment next to a bar and restaurant you should know what you've signed for. I always tell my clients when they want to buy on Ocean Drive that it is a noisy street. You still can live in the suburbs if you want something quiet, and many streets in Coral Gables are very quiet. She can move.
Best regards.
FD @ Condo Hotel South Beach
There is something missing within all this, the complaints did not come from an individual, but from the condo association ( which represents ALL units from X Aragon )
Is it possible that EVERYONE made the same mistake? or that F&F is actually the troublemaker? Isn't it peculiar that te only establishment mentioned was F&F?
Rules are suppose to be followed, you should NOT sell liquor to underage, you should NOT sell liquor afterhours... Let's not be so naive as to "if a law was broken, the police would intervene"
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